In this video episode of The Litigation Psychology Podcast, the current President of DRI discusses how DRI is handling the pandemic response for their membership, as well as insights on nuclear verdicts, the challenges with battling third-party funding of plaintiff’s litigation, the value of preparing witnesses for reptile attacks before depositions and the pros and cons of virtual depositions, plus an update on DRI’s plans for in-person events.
Full Episode Transcript
[0:04] Bill:
Welcome to The Litigation Psychology Podcast brought to you by Courtroom Sciences. We are thrilled absolutely thrilled to have Phil Willman. Phil how you doing up there in St. Louis and is your weather nearly as good as mine as you can see in this backdrop?
[0:17] Philip:
Its absolutely gorgeous here it’s sunny and cool and green and everything it’s just beautiful
[0:27] Bill:
Yeah I lived in Chicago for 15 years and what I know about the month of May it’s beautiful today it’s probably gonna be snowing tomorrow right
[0:39] Philip:
absolutely true
[0:41] Bill:
well thank you so much for coming on the podcast and there’s so many important things to discuss let’s start with I’ve noticed DRI really shooting out a lot of emails with a lot of educational opportunities during the pandemic a lot of them related to covid 19 for both clients and law firms to sign up for how come I have not seen any webinars about the murder Hornets which are the next big problem that we’re gonna face here you’ve you’ve had to read about this right?
[1:13] Philip:
I have read about it yes
[1:16] Bill:
I’ve not seen any DRI sponsored webinars yet so you guys need to get the ball rolling with those okay?
[1:21] Philip:
we’ll get on it. I don’t know sort of litigation could come out of that but there’s probably gonna be something
[1:32] Bill:
there’s probably gonna be something with the murder hornets but no back to the real issue can you talk about some of the internal discussions with with you guys particularly within DRI on how you’re handling this pandemic and and trying to get education out there to the defense bar
[1:48] Philip:
well it’s a cliche but out of this pandemic are some opportunities for our organization for years we have been discussing changing the platform that we use for education and not relying so heavily on the big box seminars
this is forcing us to do that and look at online program and interactive programming streaming different ways of presenting content to to our members and so it’s forced us to do that and that’s just what you know what you’re seeing
[2:28] Bill:
I’ve been working a lot with Johnny Brown who’s taking care of all that stuff for you I think I’ve done eight webinars already for DRI they’ve been really well attended
I believe they’re using zoom as the format the platform for that those have been going very well and I think you’re right it’s really forced everybody to come up with some new ideas the problem I was having with DRI meetings I go there to present and you know if you get the 2:30 or the three o’clock speaking slot half your memberships on the golf course the other half of them are in the lobby bar or out by the pool depending on the location
and you know they are expensive and there’s a lot travel involved I think I think the webinars are great please keep those up and let us know how we at Courtroom Sciences can continue to contribute
you know one of the most recent ones we did for you which this is a problem it’s been a problem it’s going to continue to be a problem unless there’s some major changes in the defense bar is the whole concept and phenomena of the nuclear verdict at DRI I imagine there’s been a lot of talk about this and probably internally with your own law firm
what are your perceptions of the nuclear verdicts you know the one thing that we said very early in our webinar is that this is nothing new it used to be called the runaway jury back in the 80s and 90s and now it’s just now they call it the nuclear verdict but there are some pretty disturbing verdicts out there
what has your firm talked about internally on maybe changing your playbook around to make sure that you can prevent these for your clients?
[4:10] Philip:
well I think the way to begin the discussion is to look at what is the root of that happening and I think one of and one of the things that we have talked about as a firm but also more significantly at DRI is Millennials as as jurors and and what what is it because I think that’s where a lot of this is being driven us by the younger members of the jury
and good that our better understanding of who they are and what they’ve been through I mean it’s a generation that went through Enron it’s a generation that distrusts institutions and many times the defendants the you know the the organization’s we are defending are corporations or businesses which there’s a you know incredibly high distrust of right now because of things like Enron and other other disasters in the past
so that’s where you begin the discussion and get a bit better understanding of of that distrust and so yeah you know I think one way to address it is to try to build that trust you know starting with you know in the jury trial starting with voir dire
[5:28] Bill:
totally agree another interesting topic that came up during our webinar which is really scaring everybody to death now who blame them is this whole notion of third party litigation financing for plaintiffs that’s been a game changer what if anything can the defense bar do to try to counter that because when you have an adversary that has an open checkbook just blank check and they’re able to do things that the defense can’t do that really puts you in a very very difficult position doesn’t it
[5:57] Philip:
it does and it brings up all kinds of ethical issues for as well I mean they just you know the way that that can affect settlement can affect whether a case goes to trial
so what DRI has been doing through our Center for law and public policies we’re beginning to push for legislation or rule changes that would require through discovery that information has to be disclosed
that you know if there’s a third party that has an interest that that has to be disclosed that’s that’s the first step that we’re taking so that at least we know because I don’t think people really know there’s really no way to to know that it’s you know that’s part of the part of the litigation that there’s another party who has a financial interest a significant financial interest in many respects
[6:57] Bill:
and one industry in particular that’s actually getting some great PR right now is the trucking industry but boy they’ve been just absolutely clobbered by these nuclear verdicts
so we’re trying to work specifically with that industry to help them out to give them the the weaponry to help them prevent nuclear verdicts is your is your firm handling any trucking work
[7:20] Philip:
yeah I don’t personally but we have a pretty substantial trucking practice
[7:27] Bill:
and and what are some of the things because obviously you’ve you’ve read about some of these just horrific verdicts against trucking companies and I think part of it that’s feeling it is the reptile folks have really sunk in their claws into the trucking industry and they’ve been in the crosshairs for some time
I know that you guys put on your your partner’s meeting and firm meetings to help I even spoke at one of those with you we did a reptile talk together are you still talking internally about the evolution of the reptile tactics and trying to educate your folks internally on how to derail that reptile attack
[8:09] Philip:
sure yes we’re doing that internally you know and applaud is to you and your company that you know that’s what you do in terms of at the very beginning witness preparation that’s probably the most important part of it is preparing witnesses truck drivers for what what to expect and how do to handle those that line of questioning
that’s that’s you know the bare minimum that has to that needs to be done to attack the reptile
[8:45] Bill:
I think it’s the number one most important thing thankfully we’ve cracked the reptile code we have the antidote here to take care of this I think oftentimes the problem is we get the call way too late and when you have the depositions already recorded particularly on videotape you know in the can and then you’re stuck with those going to trial
can you maybe describe to me that pit in your stomach when the plaintiff attorney hits play at trial and you have to watch your client or your clients’ employees on videotape getting reptiled and looking really bad kind of what does that do to you as the defense attorney
[9:28] Philip:
it’s a sinking feeling a lot loss loss of control lack of control you know but you can’t you can’t unravel that what what has happened that’s that’s the the second feeling is loss of control not being able to position your your case the way that you want to and should
[9:46] Bill:
and again the good news it is 100% preventable with early interaction with your you know whether it be safety director’s or drivers well really in any industry I know that you guys do a lot of health care litigation I think they’ve tried to jump ahead of this and get people properly prepared for deposition testimony so it’s not coming back to haunt them down the road
now this is a perfect segue into the next topic is tell me about your experiences with we’re doing a lot of virtual witness preps to prepare witnesses for deposition tell us about your experiences with doing virtual depositions and maybe some of the pros and cons that you’ve come across
[10:28] Philip:
well I mean the pros are the accessibility the ease at which it can be done instead of travel and and lost time then it can be done instantaneously and easily that’s one of the biggest pros
the cons still I think is the lack of human contact even though on virtually you can get a sense of who the witness is and that’s a very important part of what we do as trial lawyers is to size up the witness is it somebody who gets angry upset nervous or is confident cool that’s part of our assessment
and I think it’s a little harder to do that virtually it’s not impossible but it’s much more more imprecise than actually having that that that personal contact that face-to-face contact
[11:25] Bill:
have you have you seen it maybe be helpful in a way that perhaps plaintiff attorneys particularly the real aggressive ones they’re not able to maybe intimidate the witness as they would if they’re sitting a couple of feet feet away have you noticed maybe the temperature cooling down in the video deps versus to face the face
[11:49] Philip:
yes because there’s a you know that’s the that’s the flip side of it that emotional separation can work in favor of that that that’s it’s it gives some insulation to the defendant witness
they’re not going to be as easily pushed into emotions that they don’t that they shouldn’t be showing so yeah it does give that give some separation
[12:16] Bill:
and we’re probably gonna continue to see this for quite some time probably depending on what what region of the country you are in
final topic has there been any discussions within DRI on kind of when more the face-to-face seminars are gonna be is there any type of I’m not asking you to give me a precise date but just maybe some general idea because I do think there’s gonna be some point where these meetings are going to continue
has there been discussion of that on maybe how or when that’s going to happen
[12:51] Philip:
the face to face well you know we’re taking it very incrementally right now we’re rescheduling some of the seminars later in the year with the hope and expectation that there’ll be a way to do it with social distancing perhaps with with some of the other guidelines that are that are being followed
so that’s our hope and belief that we’ll be able to do some some of that what I mean the component that we cannot replace with virtual programming with our seminars is networking that I just I mean you can have virtual cocktail hours but it just it just doesn’t do it
so that’s that’s our biggest limits is how to to provide that to our members which now is a very very important part of being a member of DRI is the ability to network with clients obviously but also with other lawyers and other professionals
so but that’s our hope is that late fall winter that we’ll be able to get back to some semblance of in-person seminars and it might be a mix it might be some of it is online some of it is stream and some of it is is person to person
so that’s that’s a possibility and we’re looking at that we’re also looking at at some of the platforms for virtual conferences on the size of the seminars you have two hundred six hundred people which you can’t really do with zoom but but there are some platforms that we’re looking at that can provide that to us
[14:30] Bill:
well keep us posted Philip thank you so much for being on the podcast you’re doing a wonderful job at DRI so keep up the good work and go Cubs
[14:41] Philip:
Go Cards. Hey I just want to thank you and your firm you’ve been wonderful partners for many years with DRI you provide significant training to our members so we we much appreciate that partnership and relationship
[15:00] Bill:
and we love working with you guys as well and we want to continue that into the future as much as we can so keep in touch and we’ll talk to you soon
[15:08] Philip:
Sounds good
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