Episode #297 – The Connection Between Reptile Theory and Meat Loaf

Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D. describes the surprising connection between Meat Loaf’s 1993 hit song I Would Do Anything for Love (But I Won’t Do That) and the Reptile Theory. Bill breaks down the correlation between the lyrics of this love song and the unreasonable expectations and standards that are present in Reptile questions. He explains how attorneys need to help witnesses understand that circumstances and judgment play a pivotal role when responding to classic Reptile questions in deposition.

Full Episode Transcript

[00:14] Bill Welcome to another edition of the Litigation Psychology Podcast brought to you by Courtroom Sciences. Dr. Bill Kanasky here. Hey, how are those New Year’s resolutions going? Huh? How they doing? How are those working out for you? Don’t do those. They’re dumb. I’ve told you this before. It’s too much pressure. Start of the year. Everybody else is doing it. Waste of time. Everybody fails. Trust me. This—the local gym’s here. Just give it till next couple weeks and they’ll be empty again. empty again. Yeah. Skip the New Year’s resolutions. You want to make a change. You don’t need the new year to make a change. You make a change anytime you want. Just got to put your mind to it. Make a plan, right? Maybe like maybe you want to get better at your disruptive voir dire. Well, you don’t need to do that on January 1. You can do that anytime. You want to practice constructing more razor-sharp opening statements? Don’t need a resolution for that. Get my paper. Listen to the podcast. Show you exactly how to do that. I just did one. Oh, trial’s tomorrow. Trial is tomorrow over on the west coast of Florida. So, I can’t really talk about the case, but I’ve been working with this attorney over the last week. We have got a killer opening. It’s killer. It’s, It’s 14, 15 minutes long. He’s got 12 slides. Every slide’s a picture, too. No, no slides with words. He’s got the cognitive lens going, followed by his narrative setup. First two minutes coming out grabbing attention, guns blazing. Then he’s got his I don’t think it’s three, but I think it’s about three. It’s it’s it’s three by five or five by 3, excuse me. He’s got five key issues, three key points, including his experts. Boom, boom, boom. Stick and move. Stick and move. Stick and move. And the closing of his opening is a kind of a rewording of that cognitive lens. very very powerful, very really tough case, but I’m really happy with that opening and um excellent attorney and was very open-minded. He’s been trying cases for 30 years, very open-minded to getting feedback and we got to be razor sharp. So, that should be interesting.

[03:14] Bill All right. Well, I hope everybody’s um beginning of 2026 has started off well. And today we’re gonna talk about meatloaf. I’m serious. We’re going to talk about meatloaf. Now, I know what you’re thinking. This is the guy that, you know, thinks pineapple on pizza should be illegal. And he he thinks that, you know, Triscuits are far superior than than Ritz crackers. Both of those things are true. And now he wants to talk about meatloaf. Why am I listening to this podcast? Well, I’m not talking about your mother’s meatloaf. I’m talking about the Meat Loaf, the artist. Now, anybody that’s 45 to 50 age bracket here, any of you folks or older, you know exactly who I’m talking about. If you’re under 45, you probably have no earthly idea what I’m talking about. So, you probably have to go to YouTube or Spotify to work with me in this in this podcast. I’m going to tell you right now, this is a very unique podcast. This could be glorious and epically brilliant or it could crash and burn at any moment. But we’re talking about Meat Loaf. Okay. Now, who the hell’s Meat Loaf? Okay. Now, there’s several famous artists. I have only gone by one name. You have Cher, you have Sting, right? Prince, Meat Loaf. Okay, look up Meat Loaf. Now, Meat Loaf, I looked this up for you. I had to bring up my Okay, so Meat Loaf had three. He wasn’t a one-hit wonder. He was a three-hit wonder. Okay. His first two really, really good songs are from 1977. The most famous one being Paradise by the Dashboard Light. Very long, dramatic song. He’s a brilliant artist, by the way. In fact, um I want to say he died last year. You have to look that up. Paradise by the Dashboard Light, part of the album Bat Out of Hell, 1977. Now, that hit only got up to number 39 peak chart position. In the same year on the same album, his second big hit, it’s called Two Out of Three Ain’t Bad. It’s a very sad song. See, Paradise by the Dashboard Light is a very fun song. Two out of three Ain’t Bad is a very, very sad song. I want you. I need you. But there ain’t no way I’m ever gonna love you. Now, don’t be sad because two out of three ain’t bad. I can’t sing. But I’m not I just figured this out because my producer, this is the second run of this podcast. I played the songs in the first podcast and my producer called me and goes, “No, no, we’re going to get sued for copyright infringement.” I’m like, “[ __ ].” So, this is a do-over. So, I can sing it to you.

[06:24] Bill Okay. So those were his first two hits in 1977. Then then just like disappeared, but then his biggest hit of all came in 1993 on his comeback 1993. A beautiful, beautiful love song called I would do anything for love. Now, everybody right now, and here’s how I was driving the other day and this song came on and I haven’t heard it in years. And when it hit me, I’m like, “Oh my god, I gotta do a podcast about this because this this relates to depositions.” And just now now work with me. I’m gonna I’m going to connect all these dots. I promise. Okay? It’s a beautiful, amazing love song. It made it to number one and stayed there for five weeks in 1993. So, for those of you 45 and older, go throw that on and it’s going to bring back some memories. By the way, 1993, the Tar Hills won the NCAA championship in basketball. Eric Montross, George Lynch, Donald Williams on that team. 1993, I got engaged to be married. It’s a very good year. Very good year. I would do anything for love is the name of the song. So, if you’re under 45, you you need to go to Spotify or YouTube and you got to give this thing a chance. It’s a beautiful love song. However, it contains a paradox. And that’s what we’re going to talk about today because this song is what Reptile Theory is all about when it comes to questioning witnesses at deposition.

[08:21] Bill Okay, now let’s go to the lyrics. I’m gonna have to sing this unfortunately because there’s no other way. I want I wanted to play the song and got yelled at by the producer. Okay. Okay. This is very important. Okay. Oh, I lost it. Hold on. All right, here we go. First line he goes, I He sings it. I would do anything for love. And by the way, Meat Loaf had this amazing voice. Just amazing. But he could be the ugliest human being I’ve ever seen in the world. So if you’re like, go watch the music video of this. He is not a good-looking guy. But boy, does he have a voice. An again, amazing artist. I would do anything for love. That’s the first line. Second line, I’d run right into hell and back. Okay, so he’s pretty serious about what he’d do for love. First of all, he says, I’d do anything for love. Second line is, I’d run into hell and back just for love. Sounds pretty serious. Third line, I would do anything for love. So he says it again, next line, I’ll never lie to you. And that’s a fact. Okay. So, we’re through the first stanza of this and he says he’d do anything for love twice. Okay. Then he goes on to say, “I would do anything for love. I would do anything for love.” Twice in a row. So, we’re at one, two, three, four, like we’re up to five times. He says, “I would do anything for love.” In this bold, amazing voice. And what’s the next lyric right after this? After all this profession about I would do anything for love and giving examples going to hell and back. What’s the next line? The paradox. But I won’t do that. No, I won’t do that. That’s the par—That’s the next line. I do anything for love five times. Go to hell and back. Never lie to you. all this stuff. And then the final line of this is but but I won’t do that. Which is the paradox of love. We all we all say it, right? I would do anything for my spouse, anything for my boyfriend, anything for my girlfriend, anything for my kids because I love them. But I but I but I won’t do that based on what? The circumstances. We all say this stuff. I know you love your family and your spouse, your loved ones, your friends, and you do anything for them. Would you commit fraud? Would you lie to a federal investigator? Would you sell drugs? Would you do any of that for them? I won’t do that. Why not? Because there’s exceptions to everything. Love, loyalty, fairness, idealistic, just like guess what? Safety.

[11:46] Bill Okay. So, every time you see some dumbass corporate website or some policy and procedure or even uh spray painted across a tractor trailer or a billboard for the hospital that says, “We put safety number one. Safety is our top priority.” What are we really doing, folks? It’s Meat Loaf. It’s the same thing. But I won’t do that because you can’t you you can’t do anything for love. You can’t do anything and everything for safety. You can’t do everything and anything for loyalty or fair—It’s impossible. But that’s what every corporation tells you. And it’s not true. Which is why these god [ __ ]  reptile questions are so effective. I was working with a nurse. I told you the story before. It’s worth repeating. Remember, redundancy is a great thing. And she was struggling with these reptile questions. So I’m telling her, listen, safety is actually not your top priority. She’s like, yes it is. She’s yelling at me. So, I had to go Meat Loaf on her. I went, “Do you love your children?” She goes, “Yeah, I love them to death.” “How many kids do you have?” “I have two kids.” Okay. You do anything to protect your kids, right? Because you love them so much. “I would do anything.” And she’s pounding the table. Yes. So, I said, “Okay, well, would you you know, they they go to a rough school locally. Would you would you would you sell drugs? Would you sell methamphetamine out of your garage? like like Breaking Bad and take that cash that you got from from selling the drugs and send your kids to a safer, better school? She goes, “No.” I go, “Would you start an Only Fans page? Start an Only Fans page and take the money from that and and put your kids in a school where they’d be better educated, better protected, and safer?” “Well, no. I would never do either of those two things.” But I won’t do that. So I said, “I know,” and now she’s mad at me. And I went, “That’s why you don’t say yes to the first question.”

[14:25] Bill Okay. So what I’m telling you today is the reptile theory was was essentially born inside of a 1993 Meat Loaf song. It’s what it is, right? The paradox of all these idealistic principle. It’s love, it’s loyalty, it’s fairness, it’s safety. And this is why you have to talk to these witnesses regardless of what dumbass language is on the website or in the policies and procedures. That’s not the reality. Okay? They start getting all these safety questions. The only answers by the way these are truthful answers which is what makes them effective is that safety is one of the many concerns we have a company ABC XYZ that’s the truth it’s one of the many concern it’s not number one a hospital could not function if safety was number one a trucking company you you how could you you just park the park the truck hell you parked the truck somebody slams into your truck when it’s parked. Still unsafe. You you you It’s impossible, right? No industry could function if safety was truly and practically a top priority. So why does everybody say this? And they keep reptile theory again. Born in a Meat Loaf song from 1993 really came out in 2009. It’s 2026 and people still don’t get it. What in the world is going on? It’s still being used all over. Okay. “It’s one of our many concerns. It depends on the full set of circumstances. Every situation’s different.” These are truthful, accurate answers because that definition of safe can and will change depending on the situation.

[16:52] Bill But why does everybody keep saying it? Why? Because it sounds great. It’s very idealistic. It’s very, very idealistic. But boy, it sounds good. Right now, here’s the other problem with your witnesses. Is this safety number one, safety first, safety top priority, has been beaten into every employee’s head 24/7, 365 over and over and over and over again. So like their brain has developed, we call this in psychology, a cognitive schema related to safety. It’s been drilled into their head. So when these questions come up at deposition, they’re like, “Yeah, of course. Yep. Number one, hell, it says it on my company t-shirt.” Yikes. So, one of the core things that you have to do as a defense attorney is, and it’s this is time intensive. This does not take two minutes. It’s going to take like a solid 15 minutes is you have to have the talk with them that I just had. Maybe you play the Meat Loaf song for all I know, but you got to give them examples of how that concept is really not true. It’s an idealistic principle that people strive for, but certainly not. Hey, let’s just go wrap every tractor trailer in bubble wrap. So, when they crash into [ __ ] it’s okay. You hear the pop pop. The bubbles just explode. It’s fine. Let’s just do that. Can’t do that. Won’t do that. You can’t do it. Right. That would be the safest thing, right? So, there’s limitations to all this and so many witnesses still in 2026, particularly the ones in healthcare, transportation, construction, they, you know, the training they go through, right? And things like that and the language that their own employers use, it’s just drilled into their head and it’s really difficult to break them out of that.

[19:11] Bill It’s very, very difficult. So, it requires… Can I do a podcast without my dog barking? Paige, please. You know, I’m doing a podcast. She does this every time. Stop it. I was playing the Meat Loaf song earlier. Maybe it was that. But here here’s here here’s the whole point. Um, Reptile uh, which is now called Edge, right? We all know that. Uh, it’s alive and well. You still see this a lot. Um, some plaintiff attorneys use it, some don’t. There’s different modifications. I’ve seen it used in employment law a lot with using fairness or transparency as opposed to safety. Right? It’s the same it’s the same sequence of of questions, but again, they want to get that witness locked into the major principle, which sounds terrific and it’s all over the website and the policies and procedures, but it’s not true. So if your witness sits there and turns into a bobblehead doll. “Yes. Yes. Yes.” And they get on that yes train. They’re going right to Yesville and your case just doubled in value. It’s going to be expensive to settle that one. So what do you do? You have to have the talk with them and it’s going to sound I mean they’re going to look at you like you have three heads. I told you I did this with the nurse and she was yelling at me like I was crazy. She’s yelling at me like I was crazy.

[20:53] Bill Okay, but it’s really important to have that talk because their brain’s going to fight you on this concept. Brain’s going to fight you on this, right? So, you have to get you have to explain all this stuff like I just explained to you. I’d give some real-world examples. I’d get out of litigation. I would use the one with uh use the one about uh do you love your kids? You do anything for your kids, right? And then name something absurd and they’d be like, “No, of course not.” You’re like, “See, I thought you loved your kids. You’re a liar.” And they’re gonna be like, “Well, I just I won’t do I won’t do that.” Right? You got to guys, please. I I know I’m a terrible vocalist here. Go listen to the song. I do anything for love. Meat Loaf 1993. Okay. But I think the reason I brought this up was number 1 I heard the song a couple days ago and I wrote it out. I’m like, I have to put this on the podcast. But number two, we train every witness for this, every single one, because in certain regions particularly, um, reptile edge stuff, those tactics are still, again, they’re alive and well. I think they don’t get the amount of respect they deserve. I think um remember the reptile folks when they had it like really going on, let’s call it the 10-year the 10-year uh glory days that they had 2009 to 2019. They were number one internally. They didn’t have much like Trojan horse really wasn’t really a big deal at that point.

[22:32] Bill Okay. But now you know so the reptile edge people had their business divorce everybody split off and so now you have different you know plaintiff training modules different different plaintiff attorneys uh doing their uh thing I’m a I’m all I think training is a great thing so you know hats off to the training going on on there over on the plaintiff side. Hey can I get a break over here please? What are you barking at? It’s distracting. I’m doing a podcast. I She does this every time. By the way, you don’t ever hear like my cat meowing? Do you? No, she’s sitting right over here quiet looking at me. Cuz see, I’m a cat guy. Everybody makes fun of me. Dogs, they just bark. They smell, right? They bark at like leaves. They stink. They shed all over. The cat, this cat’s just sitting here looking at me going, “Hey, great job, Dr. Bill. I love you.” I love you, too.

[23:31] Bill Okay. So, yeah. So, this stuff’s still going on. So, you still need to be prepared for it. You may not be seeing it as much. So, because some other tactics have uh been developed, but I still think every witness needs to be prepared for the possibility of this because it may come up in some way, shape or form, and your witness is going to be ready. But you really have to have this talk and explain to them the illog—the illogical nature of this, right? The illogical nature of this. It’s idealism versus realism and you had to explain it. They’re probably going to fight with you a little bit. You got to give them some examples. Maybe show them some other depo transcripts and kind of show them the dangers of the path this is going to go down and then show that hypocrisy effect at the end. We’ve talked about that over and over and I’ve written how many papers on this. Come on, folks. All right. Well, listen everybody. Um, I hope you enjoyed that. Um, go go go listen to go listen to 1993 Meat Loaf and uh let me know what you think. It’s actually it’s a it’s a fantastic beautiful rock ballad love song from the early 90s. You’ll absolutely love it. All right, everybody. Litigation Psychology Podcast brought to you by Courtroom Sciences. Dr. Bill Kanasky. See you next time.