Episode #53 – Mental Health & Trucking Litigation

Our focus on mental health issues in litigation continues with trucking attorney Larry Hall, Shareholder with Sandberg Phoenix law firm in St. Louis, MO. Larry is the head of the transportation group and has extensive experience in trucking litigation. Larry and Dr. Bill Kanasky discuss the historically negative perception that jurors have had of the trucking industry and the opportunities that defense counsel need to take advantage of during voir dire and opening statements to bring more attention to how critical truck drivers and the transportation industry are to our daily lives, particularly during the pandemic. Larry and Bill then tackle the mental health challenges that exist in trucking litigation and the awareness we have to have when dealing with witnesses in trucking litigation. They talk about how defense counsel and their witness effectiveness consultants need to manage the mental health stressors of the truck drivers and other witnesses who are being deposed. They also discuss the importance of establishing trust with your witness before you begin any litigation specific discussion, the changes that will be needed in jury selection and voir dire when courts open back up since so much has changed due to Covid-19, and much more.

Full Episode Transcript

[00:05] Bill Welcome to another edition of the Litigation Psychology Podcast. This is Dr. Bill Kanasky. This podcast is brought to you by Courtroom Sciences. With me, my very good friend Larry Hall, trial attorney, has the best haircut of any other guest on the podcast ever for 53 episodes. And finally, I get somebody that looks like my twin. Larry, how you doing?

[00:29] Larry Doing great, Bill. Doing great. Low maintenance is how me and you like to roll with the haircuts.

[00:33] Bill Oh absolutely, but not everybody can pull it off. You have to have the special dome. You’ve, you’ve got it and uh, it looks great.

[00:41] Larry Absolutely, you too, sir. You too.

[00:44] Bill Larry, tell our audience a little bit about yourself, uh, your practice and, and, and your firm just so everybody can kind of, uh, get you know. You and i have done several podcasts together, uh, for DRI. This is the first time you’re on my show so, uh, let us know a little bit a bit about yourself.

[01:00] Larry Yeah Bill, really excited to be here. So, I’m with the Sandberg Phoenix law firm. I’m in St. Louis. We’re a Midwest, uh, law firm. I generally cover Illinois, Missouri, and Kansas as primary responsibilities. I’m the head of our transportation group here at my firm. My practice is mainly devoted to risk management and defense of transportation companies and accidents. And we, uh, really assist them in all matters. My firm has about 200 attorneys, so we have a broad array of experience in business, business litigation, and things like that. So we really serve as outside general counsel to a number of motor carriers advising them on everything from their real estate transactions to their business deals and then obviously my component of it is risk management and accident defense. So really, really lucky to be with a great firm and I rely a lot on, uh, on the expertise that others have to offer.

[01:58] Bill Well that’s excellent. You know my first question Larry, which is arguably the most important question: are the people of Saint Louis still mad at the Rams? I’m guessing yes.

[02:08] Larry Absolutely they are. They are, uh, uh, furious with Stan Kroenke. We root against all of Stan Kroenke’s teams here, particularly the Colorado Avalanche, uh, and we root against the Rams. And that is why the St. Louis Battlehawks were such a resounding success is because we’re ready to prove to the nation that we had a bad football organization ran by an evil person and that we’re a football town.

[02:32] Bill I had to go there, but listen you got great hockey, you got great baseball so yeah, two out of three ain’t bad.

[02:38] Larry Absolutely, absolutely.

[02:40] Bill Uh, let’s talk about transportation law, Larry. So I, I was talking to my colleague Dr. Steve Wood. We did a podcast last week and I told him, I said particularly for the trucking industry in relation to COVID, I said it kind of feels like the kickoff in the third quarter of a football game. Meaning we’ve been through half of this mess. The trucking industry’s kind of done what it can to redefine itself a little bit, particularly public perception, and now we got the second half of this game going. You know, in, in the second half, how do you think the trucking industry did in, in the first half of this game? Because I, when I compare it to what the healthcare industry did, I just personally think trucking could have did a lot more.

[03:27] Larry Well, what do you mean in terms of—

[03:30] Bill The public messaging. Because I got to tell you, I think truck drivers are heroes, but I don’t see signs, I don’t see billboards, I don’t see commercials. But I see signs, billboards, and commercials about the, uh, the healthcare providers being the heroes. And I think they’re both heroes, but I think one’s getting a lot of positive press while the other one I don’t see a whole lot.

[03:51] Larry Yeah, I think, I think it’s because you know kind of the perpetual problem we have with trucking is that we work behind the scenes. Uh, you know, when, when folks go to the grocery store and they pick out the, the toilet paper that’s become a highly valued commodity, uh, you know, they don’t think about that it took a truck driver working during the deadly pandemic to get it there. They’re appreciative that the grocery store and the grocery store workers have it there, but, but I don’t think that, that trucking, because it’s not outward facing, uh, gets the credit that it deserves for, for getting us through the pandemic. And, and you know Bill, I was thrilled to see the coverage that those first trucks got pulling out of the Pfizer facility with the, uh, COVID vaccine because for the first time during this pandemic, I think that started to, to really on a national front and on national news show, look folks, if we’re going to get out of this pandemic, the trucking industry is the one that’s going to get us there and our logistics networks are what’s going to get us there. And, and we have, and those heroes that drive every day, that drive during pandemics, that drive, you know, whatever they deliver the goods that we need to keep to keep us living, and they’re going to deliver the goods to get us out of this pandemic.

[05:14] Bill Yeah, yeah. Um, the perception of the industry with jurors has notoriously been negative and I think this is a huge opportunity for the industry but particularly for trial attorneys like you. I did a very rough research unscientific study around my neighborhood and I was talking to neighbors and I’d say well what do you think about the trucking industry? And they would respond with oh god they’re so it’s a dangerous business and man I when I’m on I-4 I hate pulling up next to these trucks and they’re swerving into my lane and you hear about these terrible like it was just all negative. But then when I would ask a different set of people, well what do you think about the trucking industry’s role in the COVID-19 crisis? 100 percent positive. Meaning I think going forward and as courtrooms start to eventually reopen, this can be important for trial attorneys to, to, to tell the narrative and to, and to attach it to COVID because I do think like you said, it’s a really, really good story. And if trial attorneys don’t, don’t make the most of that, I think they’re really losing something with the jury. What do you think?

[06:22] Larry Bill, I couldn’t agree more. I think, I think that a lot of the, the impetus to make this type of change is on attorneys like myself. I mean during voir dires, during openings, during witness, uh, questioning, even during depos for goodness sake, I mean we need to, to emphasize the story behind these companies and what they do and why they do it. You know, the, the plaintiffs bar and the trial attorneys spend millions of dollars and listen to speakers about storytelling. Storytelling, storytelling, storytelling. That is what they’re about because that’s what juries want to hear in 2021. And as, as defense lawyers, we have to get better at telling our client story because it’s a compelling story to tell. Every day I get the, the honor and privilege to represent people that are essential to keeping this country running. And when we don’t tell that story in front of a jury or, or during a witness questioning it, when we don’t get that story out, then we’re doing the, the industry a disservice. As we all know, the industry is under attack from—they have, they have targets on their back and every day I look at lawsuits being filed not because there’s liability but because you represent a big truck. And that’s why they’re being filed. And so, and so, and so how do we fight that? We have to become better storytellers. We have to tell about the companies that distributed the, uh, distributed the vaccinations. We have to tell about, uh, you know, driver John from, from Missouri that continued to work during the pandemic delivering food to the grocery stores even when it was dangerous and it was scary and his wife would pack his lunch because he didn’t want to get out of his truck. We need to be able to tell those stories. And if we don’t tell those stories, then we as a defense bar, uh, are doing our clients a disservice because we represent good people and we have to become better storytellers.

[08:20] Bill I totally agree and, um, one of the something a part of this story, Larry, is I think you can use the healthcare comparison too in your favor by saying our folks are just as valuable as the healthcare folks because the healthcare folks can’t do their job without us. I mean, you precede the healthcare folks. Meaning they’re putting the healthcare people on a pedestal. I, I get that and I understand that and, and they’re doing wonderful, wonderful work but nothing happens without, nothing happens without the trucking industry. And I think that would be a good part of the story to really educate, um, jurors going forward.

[09:01] Larry Absolutely, Bill, couldn’t agree more.

[09:03] Bill Yeah, um, now another topic I want to come up, and this, and I do want to ask you about the industry but also just about the firm, uh, as well. And this has been a topic, uh, we’re kind of making a themed, uh, topic, um, this month in, in January regarding mental health. Mental health has always been stigmatized, no one’s ever wanted to talk about it. Now through the pandemic, you see a lot of people struggling at multiple levels and as you can see, you know COVID, uh, the pandemic, uh, does not discriminate really across—I mean it’s affected all of us emotionally, health-wise, uh, physically, uh, a lot of us economically across the board. And so mental health issues I think are coming up both internally um, I’ve heard about them at law firms, I’ve heard about consulting firms like ours, regular, you know, banks, you name it. Um, there’s been a struggle nationally with coping with a lot of things. You throw in some political unrest on top of that—maybe the most stressful time in American history. I have noticed when I’m working with witnesses, a lot of witnesses have had had struggles. What are you doing kind of personally and as a firm to monitor your, your truck drivers or your safety directors? What I’ve been doing is starting off these witness prep sessions not talking about the file but to say, you know, how are you doing? How are you coping with this? Do you know any anybody in your family get COVID? Have you had a financial? So I’m kind of doing this interview process with the witness to see if there’s anything there because I could, if I have a witness that’s really anxious or they’re really depressed, the prep session is going to be useless. What are some of the things that maybe you’ve run into in the last eight or nine months that you’ve had to deal with?

[10:55] Larry Yeah, I think, I think the pandemic has been a great reinforcement for something and, and you know regardless of what industry you’re in but particularly the trucking industry. When you call a truck driver after they’ve been in an accident, whether it’s in pandemic times or not in pandemic times, if your first question isn’t how are you doing, are you doing okay, then you’re probably not doing it right. And I think that you know in, in our world of defense and analyses and things like that, sometimes we forget the human element, particularly when you’re not in person, when it’s a phone call or it’s a zoom conversation. I think the human element is lost and I am amazed at how many times when I ask that question, “how are you doing in response to this accident,” I get a response where “I’m doing okay but I’d really like to know how that other person’s doing or how, how that other person was hurt in the accident. How are they doing? Can you tell me that?” And, and, and I think that humanizing it is, is so important, uh, to take care of your drivers and their mental health when you’re prepping them for depo. Are you nervous? It’s okay to be nervous, everyone’s nervous. And, and, you know, uh, though one of the greatest compliments I’ve ever, I’ve ever gotten from a truck driver—I worked with this truck driver extensively, he was incredibly hard depo prep, we met four or five times. He did an okay, uh, job at his depo. During the first break at his depo, um, I, I put him on the verge of tears because he was, he was not performing well, he was acquiescing, he wasn’t sticking up for himself and I kind of gave him a pep talk. And I said, I said, you need to stick up for yourself. You have to do it, you have to do it. And I’m driving home that night at about 11 o’clock at night, I get a text message from him that said, “thanks for fighting your ass off for me today.” And that’s one of the most incredible rewards I’ve gotten as a defensive attorney, to get a note from that driver about that. And you know in the pandemic, whether you’re a truck driver, whether you’re in management, whether you’re an attorney like me, you know for me Bill, my office for the most part is now in my living room. And figuring out just because my, my living room office is there, trying to find time to be a spouse and a dad, you know I, I’ve had to figure out how to, just because my setups right there doesn’t mean that, that I need to be in work mode all the time and I need to be, you know, taking care of my family and myself to find time to decompress. You know, I’ve, I didn’t prioritize exercise enough at the beginning of the pandemic. I used to go to group health or group fitness classes a lot and those got canceled for a long time and now, uh, transitioned to doing in-home stuff which, which, you know, exercise for mental health is incredibly, uh, healthy and, and really helps me a lot. And you know, and it’s, you know work-life balance is, is always for me a continuing battle like it is I’m sure it is for you and professionals and truck drivers and everyone all over the world. It’s a constant battle but I think it’s a battle you have to fight consciously and I think you have to think about it and, and make sure that what you’re doing in your day reflect your priorities in life. And I, I think that helps. As a firm, you know we, we subscribe to a service that offers, uh, counseling and things for, for mental health folks and two, one of the things we focused on is mentorship. So I try to check in you know weekly, uh, or every other week with, with the associates. What are you worried about? What, what’s going on that we need to address? You know some of them at one point worried that the firm was gonna close, that we were gonna close our doors, you know, and they had, you know, some, some fears. And just, just getting out ahead of those and just saying hey I’m here to have an honest conversation with you about what you’re worried about. And, and certainly as a credit to my firm, my, my superiors and our management committee are incredibly open with the partners about what we’re doing, about, about why we’re doing it. And because of that, you know, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve been able to, to fight hard through this pandemic and are still here and it has kept everyone and you know are hoping to continue to do that. But it’s been a difficult time. I think it’s a great conversation to have, we all need to have it on, on a daily and weekly basis with ourselves.

[15:00] Bill Yeah, because I think if, um, because of the, I mean it’s really isolation. People have been isolated and the only communication you have is “well how many billable hours did you have this week?” That, that’s not helping anybody’s, uh, um, you know mental health or how they are. But I do think it’s, it’s more of a communication, uh, you know with your staff and also communication with your, with your clients. Um, and so I do think I’m doing a podcast, um, in a couple days, uh, with another attorney and the entire podcast is about that initial meeting, you know, with your, with your driver, uh, or, or, or with your safety director that maybe you don’t know and how if you just jump right into the lawsuit, there’s a lot of things that you’re missing that can backfire on you, right?

[15:48] Larry Absolutely it absolutely can. And I, and I think what is, what is paramount to prepare a witness for a depo, whether you’re in your role, whether you’re in my role, is that that witness trusts you. Yes. And they trust you so much more when you find common ground with them. I have a little girl, you know I, I went to a certain college, I, you know, we’re a part of the trucking industry or, you know, just sitting down and just being human with them and getting that trust. Boy, is that going to go a long way when you’re asking them to lock in with you and prepare for a depo or focus during the deposition and then you know they have that personal buy-in and they understand that, that you’re there trying to help them. And I think that you get when you develop that trust you just get so much more output that—I agree with you totally. You can’t start if you jump into the facts of the, of the case, you’re going to be that person that came in to talk about that lawsuit and you’re never going to be Larry or you’re never going to be Bill and they’re not going to know anything about you and they’re not going to trust you.

[16:51] Bill Last question. So going forward, uh, you know, we’re eventually going to get back into the courtroom. Um, what do you plan on doing differently? I think the obvious I would hope is, um, is you’re going to have to do jury selection. Voir dire and jury selection is going to be a—I mean whatever you thought you knew about jury decision making just put it aside because I, I think a lot of us, we’re starting from scratch because of this pandemic, because of these social issues in this country. I think it’s rocked everybody and I think your ability to ask really good voir dire questions may very well determine your fate in the courtroom. What do you think?

[17:28] Larry I, I agree absolutely Bill and boy do I think that your conversations about the reverse reptile couldn’t be more relevant than ever. I mean, I mean if we are good storytellers and we can convince America that this is an essential industry and that, that these drivers are needlessly going after trucking companies to try and recover these huge sums of money. And you don’t have to tell a jury about the plaintiffs, uh, bar and their billboards and all that, they know, they see it. And boy, if you can, if you can use the reverse reptile and strategies like that to turn it as this essential industry is being attacked, I think that we can really make a lot of progress, uh, for the industry. And I’ve already started doing it in depos. It is amazing to watch the look on a plaintiff’s attorney’s face who’s used to doing the reptile when they realize I’m doing it to their client in reverse. Boy, the look on their faces, uh, is interesting. And, and I, I really think you hit on the head, we haven’t done a good job, good enough job yet right now. I think there’s still room to be made for how do we convince people that this, what truckers have done, is essential and have helped to save, uh, people’s lives, people’s ability to eat and feed their families and have toilet paper and certainly the vaccine. If we effectively tell that story, I think we can do a great benefit to the industry in terms of, of starting to change people’s perception of the industry, how essential it is, and to start preventing these needless attacks on the industry, uh, from some of these, uh, plaintiffs bar members who are not worried about liability or anything like that. Certainly there are accidents where the, the commercial motor vehicle driver is at fault and those, you know, need to be paid. But on these other claims, I think there’s this is our, this is a great chance, it shouldn’t be wasted, to reframe this industry, stick up for it and change the perception of it around America because when you work in it, these are great men and women that drive these trucks and that work hard and that are family people and the last thing these folks want to do is be involved in an accident. It’s the last thing. And if we tell that story in a compelling manner we can, we can change how, how trucking’s perceived and we can take the target off of the industry’s back.

[19:42] Bill I totally agree. A lot of work to be done. Larry Hall, thank you so much for being on the Litigation Psychology Podcast. To our audience, thank you for participating in another episode and we’ll see you next time.