Tim Christ, Vice President of Growth for Claimatic, joins Dr. Bill Kanasky, Jr. to talk about how the insurance claims process has evolved over time. Tim provides some background on Claimatic, an intelligent decisioning software that automatically and quickly triages, routes, and assign thousands of claims in complex workflows and then shares how the claims process has evolved from highly manual to the use of more technology, albeit at a slow pace. Tim comments on how some in the insurance industry have begun to place more emphasis on improving the customer experience and the benefits to client retention and reducing churn. He talks about how some insurance companies have begun leveraging data to realize savings by speeding up payments on certain types of claims and what the concerns are with the broader use or adoption of technology by insurance companies. Lastly, Bill and Tim discuss the effects of COVID-19 on litigation and their thoughts and predictions on how companies will manage their workforces as they are able to return in-person to offices and what that means for continuing to work remotely or hybrid models, etc.
Full Episode Transcript
[00:05] Bill Welcome to another edition of the Litigation Psychology Podcast, brought to you by Courtroom Sciences Inc. I am Dr. Bill Kanasky here with my very good friend, and this is a repeat guest. I started to have repeat guests, kind of like, you know, Johnny Carson’s show when he had like the repeat guests, right? The only, only the good ones come back. Mr. Tim Christ from Texas. How you doing, Tim?
[00:30] Tim I’m good, Bill. Appreciate you having me back, although I would say it’s probably more like I’m just like a bad penny, right? I keep turning up.
[00:36] Bill [Laughter] No, no, no. We only have the good ones. We only have the good ones back on. But now it’s very timely because since you’ve been on the first, a lot’s changed. I mean, things are changing by the, by the week, if not, if not, if not by the day. Um, Tim, start by telling me about Claimatic. Tell me about the company. Tell me what you guys focus on and really, really what your main push is right now.
[01:06] Tim Sure. So Claimatic is a, still an insurtech startup software company. Um, we were actually born out of a independent adjusting firm. So we think about an IA firm—their big issue, or one of their big issues, is when a CAT hits, you know, like Hurricane Harvey, Houston. They get 4,000 claims from like a USAA or, you know, Allstate or whoever, and they’ve got to immediately grab all those claims and assign them to people in the field. And so there’s just a lot of logistical nightmares to that.
And so part of the secret sauce that the, uh, our architect built was an algorithm that takes all the decisions that you make when you have to do all that. So you think about: oh hey, Tim and Bill are licensed in Texas; Tim and Bill are flood certified or wind certified; Tim and Bill have certain amount of estimating authority; Tim and Bill’s physical location is whatever it is, right, because of our GPS on our phones; Tim and Bill have been assigned 25 claims already this week, or they haven’t been assigned any, or whatever their thresholds are; and are just one of them going on PTO next week or, you know, are they going to be working that kind of thing.
So there’s a couple of dozen questions that you ask from a, from a management perspective of who can I assign claims to. And so simply built a, you know, an algorithm that takes all that into consideration. And so of course when the IA firm showed it to one of their carrier clients, the carrier said, “Hey, I like that little piece of technology. Can I have it?” So that was the genesis of how Claimatic was born.
And so we’re, you know, we’re in play with a number of carriers these days. Hippo Insurance is a very public client of ours, and they’ve said that our tool has been amazing. It’s helped them, you know, dramatically reduce their time at FNOL, which is First Notice of Loss, when people are calling in and providing information. Helps better get their adjusters assigned more quickly and then helps with a lot of downstream effects as well.
So when you think about it from a, from a customer experience perspective, it’s really frictional if you call in, talk to a call center, then get a phone call from Bill, and then three days later get a phone call from Tim and Tim says, “Oh yeah, I’m sorry, Bill’s not going to work anymore. He’s too busy. I’ve got to take over.” So we’re going to assign the right resource the first time. It’s just a better customer experience and there’s less, you know, overhead and a lot, you know, less waste and things that nature. So um, helping insurance companies speed up their claims process is what we’re hyper-focused on doing. Uh, providing a better customer experience, lowering, you know, operational costs, improving profitability—all those important things in business, right?
[03:23] Bill Very exciting stuff. Now do me a favor. Walk us through the—what I’ll call—the evolution of the claims process. Tell me where it was, tell me where it’s at right now, and tell me where this, where is this train going?
[03:38] Tim No, that’s a good question. So 20 years ago I got on State Farm’s vendor list for fire losses. And they said, “Tim, you’re going to get every eighth claim because we have a round-robin claim assignment process.” And so they’re, you know, an insurer would call in, say, “I had a fire.” They would talk to the call center. The call center would send it over to the claim uh department. The claim department would assign it out to whichever team lead that would have it. Then that team lead would say, “Okay, well this is a San Antonio claim, so it’s got to go to my San Antonio manager.” And the San Antonio manager would say, “Okay, well this is out in, in Fair Oaks, you know, which is northwest, which is kind of, you know, John’s territory. And let’s make sure that John’s got enough capacity or if he hasn’t been overloaded, then I’ve got to assign Susie.”
It was a very, very manual process 20 years ago to kind of do all this. And fortunately—unfortunately—a lot of carriers, you know, still do a lot of that same process today. So it has improved to some extent, but this definitely hasn’t improved a whole lot. Um, what we’ve seen, you know, with claims in general, is there’s now an increased focus on digitizing the claim experience, so at least going to a paperless environment, right?
Obviously we’ve been in COVID now for the last year. So it used to be that, you know, the claim department would have 25 or 2,500 people in it, but now everybody’s got to work remote. Um, and so they’ve been able—most people have been able—to do that with, you know, some level of, you know, interruption to their, to their normal workflow. But you know, it’s—but the other thing with COVID hasn’t explained to us yet is we were—we’ve been in a severely depressed claim uh frequency environment, except for the CAT storms we’ve had. So we’ve had an artificially low number of claims we’ve had to manage. So I don’t think we’ve got a true measure of: can we be efficient in a work-from-home environment yet? Because we haven’t seen a normal bar. So I think that still has yet to play out and frankly, I think it’s not going to matter because I think we’re going to probably end up back in the office before um, you know, obviously before claim counts come back to normal anyway.
But so that’s kind of where we were. Very manual. Very—you know, the adjuster was really the central person in that claims process. He was the guy that basically took all the disparate data, he was physically inputting the data into whatever claim system they use, and then managing that process through and then pulling into the additional resources as needed. It’s gotten a little bit better with some technology. So now, you know, get on your app and file a claim. You don’t actually have to fax in the notice or things like that. Right? I mean um, but uh, there’s still some, you know, there’s still some challenges at the front end of that.
And on the back side of that, you know, there’s still people that want to issue paper checks. Or you know, hey, if you’ve got a mortgage on your house and they issue you a check, it’s endorsed to your mortgage company as well, which means you get your check in the mail, then you have to mail it to your mortgage company to endorse it, then they mail it back to you. So there’s, you know, still some very manual processes at play there.
Where I think it’s going—I talk about this a lot in a presentation I’ve been giving around the country to a bunch of CPCU chapters—is, you know, the insurance companies are starting to understand that when you have a claim experience, you have really two options as a result of that claim experience. If you have a good claim experience, you stay a customer and you become much more valuable to that carrier because now you’re stickier. Yeah, but it’s about a 50/50 shot. The other 50 is they don’t like the experience, they leave.
So what they’re starting to focus in on is: okay, so we can improve claim experience, we can reduce policy churn, we can improve, you know, customer NPS scores, we can improve the stories that, you know, result in that the neighborhood grapevine effect of of how we treat people. And so part of that is with technology because it’s really, you know, for a variety of regulatory reasons, you know, the insurance companies have developed a claim process that complies with all the regulatory requirements.
But when you have a claim—like I had a claim uh, we had a water softener uh burst in our, in our garage. So we came home, there’s water running out of our garage. So of course me, the forensic engineer guy, goes, “Okay, I’m going to figure out what broke,” right? And it ended up being a little PVC fitting that had fractured and burst, which is why um the water was running everywhere. But the garage was the adjacent room to our baby’s room. So my wife is dealing with the whole emotional piece of it, right? So “Oh my god, the baby’s carpet is wet and the sheet rock’s all damaged and we got to cut it all out and everything.”
So, so that was just—but you know, so what happens is I, you know, we got home, we had that claim. Well, I’ve now signed as an insured—I’ve signed up for a 16-step process, at least 16 steps if not more, to now manage to get my house back together that I had never even knew existed. And by the way, I now actually know really, really well what my policy covers and doesn’t cover. And I recognize that, you know, that 1% deductible, which just people talk about on the front end, is actually three or four thousand dollars out of my own pocket in order to, you know, cover the loss. Thankfully in my case, because it was a fractured fitting, there was a subrogation opportunity. So we actually got the plumber who had installed the system about three weeks prior to agree that it was their fault um and so it was covered under their CGL policy. So I didn’t have a, I didn’t have a dollar out of pocket. But had I not been proactive in sweeping up the water and gathering up all those pieces of plastic that had burst everywhere, we’d—we’d never have known, right?
And so that’s what happens on a day-to-day basis. And so I think where we’re going is we’re going to start to leverage technology to better manage that experience. Because there’s certain things—like if I call in the insurance company, you should know my policy number, you should know my phone number, you should be able to say, “Hi Tim, how are you doing today?” and not you make me go through a 17-question, you know, identification process.
Um and then you should be able to counsel me on whatever information I need to know, right? So you’ve got to provide the right data at the right point in time to these folks um and also be able to, you know, just keep us apprised of things. I mean, you know, you and I’ve been—we’ve been text messaging for 15, 16 years now. Insurance companies have just now in the last two or three years been able to text message. So it, you know, it’s kind of basic stuff, right? And like I said, we’re still issuing paper checks. Um yeah. And then you know, i mean i can get on the Venmo and pay anybody in the world, you know, in three minutes, but it takes 15 days for a check to get mailed for my insurance. So it’s just a lot of that basic digitization process that they’re trying to improve on.
But then you also start to figure out, well, you know, there’s areas where you can actually really delight your customer. Like, you know, Lemonade is a great example. So if you have a renter’s policy and somebody breaks into your apartment, steals your TV, you can get on your app, you know, file a claim, take a picture where the TV was—it shows the wires hanging out, you know, like somebody ripped the TV off the wall—and as long as you know, you know, basically you check that you’re a low-fraud risk and you don’t have any issues with your credit or, you know, some other things they obviously check in the background, the algorithm processes it and you get a check in three seconds. Or a direct payment, you know, three seconds for 300 bucks for your TV or whatever it is.
So that’s frictionless, right? And that’s from an insurance perspective, that’s a really great experience. And so custom insurance companies are really looking at what they call touchless claims. It’s really the way—that’s the holy grail, that’s where they’d like to get to is: if we could engineer out fraud risk at the beginning, we can straight-through pay claims.
But the problem we have is, you know—I mean you get involved in nuclear verdicts and juries and whatnot—the problem we have is when we have disputes over the amount of loss or even causation or other issues, then it gets murky and then we don’t have the opportunity to, to create a straight-through process, right? So we’ve still got to have other, other manners in which we can adjudicate a claim. But we’re going to—we’re going to bucketize everything going forward and say: okay, this group of claims which are very, very common, very, very simple, we’re going to straight-through process these; bucket claims are complex, they’re still going to have to go through a traditional process, but we’re going to figure out little slivers of those that we can do faster to compress the timeline.
Because even for litigation, you know, if I can, if I can pay somebody for a claim—even if I can pay a claim for a claim in 10 days—the likelihood of them going to litigation because they’re now screwing around with me for six months is greatly reduced, right? So then I save all that legal expense on the backend. So anything that I can do to compress the timeframe is game on, and we recognize we’re starting to do ROI calculations where: what is the cost per hour of that claim? And so I’m actually willing to overpay people in certain cases just to make it go away, because I recognize the net benefit on the savings net-net. Um and so we’re starting to—as opposed, it used to be we didn’t want to pay more than what we owed, right? But we’re starting to realize the business impact long term of that, we’re starting to factor that into our discussions.
[12:13] Bill That’s well, that’s incredible and actually very wise uh because most—I think for the, the most part—the insurance industry has been really slow to come around on that. Meaning maybe investing and paying money early to save money on the backend. That’s a concept that they’ve struggled with for a long time. And I think it’s more probably psychological uh in nature of: if I spend money up front, like I’m doing something wrong. But when you look, you zoom out, you look at the big picture, oftentimes it’s the, it’s the best decision in the long run, right?
[12:52] Tim Yeah. Well, I mean, I think yeah there’s a, there’s a cultural aspect of it, but there’s also, you know, a regulatory piece too, right? I mean that’s what the parts you can’t get away from on the, on the carrier side. Um but yeah, I mean absolutely you need to look at the, at the big picture. But even historically, underwriting and claims really haven’t ever talked to each other. So even, you know, even basic stuff like getting a hundred thousand data points of the, you know, claims that you processed last year and being able to give that back to your underwriting department to say: here’s the 80/20 rule, right? Here’s the 20% of the claims resulted in 80% of the payments and if we’d have done XYZ differently we would save 25% or whatever the number is. Even basic stuff like that hasn’t happened a lot.
And so we’re just now getting, you know—obviously with cloud technology and big data availability—we’re just now starting to get to the point where you can accumulate all those disparate data points together. But you know, I’ll give you the example. So with our firm, we were in a totally serverless environment, right? We were virtualized from 2005 on. So we had four physical servers—two in Chicago, two in Columbus—that were, you know, one was primary, one was a fail, the rollover, right? And so if Columbus or Chicago lost power, we rolled over to Columbus and vice versa. But, but none of the other servers existed; they were all in the cloud. Well, that was 2005. Well, insurance companies—a major claims management platform that exists today has just now released their cloud version in 2020.
So they’re 15 years behind on adopting cloud technologies and ability and flexibility, if you will, versus a lot of us in private business, like I said, we’ve been doing for well over a decade. So you can imagine, you know, because technology continues to evolve and increase in velocity, if we were 15 years behind on that, what are we also now missing out on? And text messaging is just another very simple example.
[14:39] Bill Yeah. No, that’s a really uh good point. They’ve been uh late to the party, if you know what I mean. So with more technology creates—seems like a lot of efficiencies and hopefully cost savings—what do you think the risks are? Because I think with any technology there’s going to be positives but then sometimes you create new problems. I mean is it like cyber security, things like that?
[15:09] Tim Yeah. I mean uh, I mean yeah there’s a number of concerns, right? I mean CNA just got hacked um here in the last month, right? And that was a huge issue. Um that’s still probably frankly going on um. The, the other, you know, the other concern you have is, you know, anytime you adopt a cool new piece of tech, if there’s any aspect of it that has a direct impact to your client, like you’ve got to be very, very careful with how that gets rolled out, right? Because if it’s negative or frictional or whatever for any reason, I mean you can immediately lose 10, 15, 20 percent of your business. I mean we’ve got a client that they were actually—they had a technical challenge last year with COVID and so they were sort of offline for a month and a half, but they literally lost 25 and a half percent of their business. Because of that, right? Yeah. I know. I mean so that—I mean that just, that’s direct bottom-line profitability and everything else, right?
So, so it’s just a—there’s a lot of care and consideration and strategic discussions that got to go on uh related to tech rollouts. But yeah, cyber security is a big issue. You know, from a regulatory perspective: is it even allowed? I mean there’s a lot of things going on regulatory-wise. I mean the Washington Insurance Commissioner has now said that we’re not going to allow credit scores for rating purposes. Um and so that’s, you know, got the whole, you know, industry up in arms.
Telematics is able to be used everywhere except for California and Florida, interestingly enough. So we’ve still got some, you know, some inconsistencies there. So there, you know—and then you know we talk about IoT and commercial application. I’d actually written an article about this a few weeks ago for PC360 because there’s an anti-rebating clause. There’s a concern that we can’t induce an insured to, you know, to give them a piece of, you know, equipment that’s going to help save them money, because that’s an inducement to purchase coverage. So that’s not allowed under the law.
But how can—how can we functionally allow an insured to use this device that’s going to reduce the frequency and severity of their, of their losses and also, frankly, save us money in a day, right? So it’s a win-win. But we haven’t figured out the right mechanism in which the, uh, that process can be, can be managed in order to help them, you know, initiate that process.
It doesn’t really exist on the personal side because Hippo Insurance is a great example. If you sign up with Hippo, they send you a little smart home kit. So you can install the little sensors—one on your front door, one on your back door, the smoke sensor in the kitchen, and then a water softener—or a water sensor by your washing machine and by your water heater. And so it tells you whether your doors are locked or open or shut; it tells you whether there’s smoke in the kitchen; it tells you whether there’s any water on the floor. And so basically it’s simply an early warning device. But Hippo will tell you you’ll get a 25% discount over a typical policy by just using their equipment.
And so when you think about that across the spectrum, I mean you know, basic stuff—if we can have, you know, security, you know, protocols in place like with the Ring doorbells and whatnot that almost everybody has—between, between theft or break-in, if we have fire risk reduced and we have water mitigation um taken care of. I mean my—our home, the local utility actually reads our meter four times an hour. They’re all—it’s all digital and cloud-enabled. And so I’ve got a dashboard I can look at and see exactly what my water usage is on an hourly, daily, weekly, monthly basis. And so I can see it across the pattern, right?
So I see, you know, Wednesday through Monday it’s pretty static, it’s 250 gallons less, but on Tuesdays—which is when we’re allowed to water—it spikes up to 900 gallons or whatever. But whenever it varies from that, I obviously then I would have a leak, right? So I’ve already set threshold triggers where if it exceeds a certain amount in a particular timeframe, then I get a notification. And so all of those things, you know, exist to help the fact that we’re, you know, likely it will reduce a loss um in the event that there’s one.
And so when you think about the, you know, that downstream, well then that takes care of a lot of premium concerns, takes care of a lot of claim concerns, and then um, you know, just spills over into that. But I think there’s a lot of applicability yet that we have yet to take advantage of.
[18:58] Bill Remember the movie Back to the Future? All that, all that, all that stuff’s coming true. Unfortunately, all the stuff from the Terminator movie I think is also coming true 30 years later um. I’m my—
[19:11] Tim My favorite show was Knight Rider. So today we can talk to our watches. And we can talk to our car. It’s—it’s about 40 years.
[19:18] Bill It only took 40 years. Um it’s absolutely frightening. It’s frightening on some level, too. Let’s talk, let’s talk um some litigation specifics um. We’ve all been forced into Zoom world or Webex world or Teams world, whatever you want—GoToMeeting world. It’s probably saved my career because I mean without it, the last year would have been very difficult. Well, what are you hearing out there—people’s experiences with using Zoom, you know, as part of the, the, the, the litigation process? And does some of this stick going forward? Because I have my thoughts about this, but I’d like to hear what you think about it.
[20:01] Tim Yeah, no. I, I talk to a lot of lawyers um and judges and, and other folks on a pretty routine basis and it’s a—it’s a mixed bag, but it depends on what function you’re talking about, right? So what I will tell you is that, without a doubt, certain depos like we’ll probably always do via Zoom. Like especially if they’re, you know, if they’re sort of peripheral depos and they’re not, you know, they’re not critical—mission critical ones.
Um I think frankly 90% of hearings can be adjudicated via Zoom because then it’s right, very factual-based, very law-based. It’s just the lawyers and the judge. There’s no emotion, you know, meant to be, you know, in connotation there. And so it should just be a conversation about: “Is this correct or procedural?” or “Is that correct procedurally?” and make a decision, judge, and go on.
Um plus, not to, you know, not to even factor in all the time savings and the cost savings rate of having to fly across the country for that same stupid hearing um to get the same, you know, similar like-type results you can get uh if you’re, you know, just via Zoom. That being said, my criminal lawyer buddies tell me that they’re having a real hard time because people that are sitting in their pajamas as jurors at home are convicting the heck out of them. There’s no emotional connection to that defendant. And so they’re just like, “Oh, yep. These guilty, done. See you.”
[21:21] Bill Yeah, that’s um… yeah, that it’s difficult. I, I think um where a lot of this is going to stick, like you said, it eliminates a lot of time and travel um for some of the basic things, particularly maybe some, you know, basic um depositions. Um attorneys tell me that they love to do the, the court hearings by Zoom because it’s like, you know, otherwise I’m sitting an hour in traffic, I’m doing my job for now and another hour back in—it’s a three-hour process for something that takes, you know, 30 minutes. And it’s created a lot of efficiencies.
And I think a lot of the judges uh are okay with it. I think some of the Zoom trials um from what I’m hearing have been somewhat disastrous because you’re right. Even in civil litigation too, um you know, the, the guy sitting in his boxer shorts and wife-beater tank top with beer stains shoving a, a Hot Pocket into his mouth—how can that person really be paying attention to what’s going on? And then again it’s like—even I would say in civil litigation too—there is a human connection there as well. And, and, and I think that it’s um… I’m not sure that part of it’s going to stick. I think the court system is going to figure—I mean, hey, I was on an airplane last week, Tim. 225 people shoulder-to-shoulder wearing masks on a five-hour—you’re telling me you can’t do that in a courtroom? Right? I mean, yeah. So oh, wow.
All right, this has been great stuff. Let’s wrap up with a topic that I see is going to be uh highly controversial in the next six months is um as places start to open back up, you know, what are employers going to do with um commutes versus, you know, versus work-from-home? Is there going to be some, you know, some um hybrid model um going on? I think for some people and industries um the work-from-home thing’s been fantastic. I think for some people and industries it’s been a disaster um going, going forward. Where do you see that going? Because again, like with anything else, technology can create some great things, but it also creates a new set of problems.
[23:50] Tim Yeah, I mean, I think that’s a real mixed bag too. Um, you know, it’s—it hasn’t been talked about a lot, but it’s interesting when I talk to folks and so I’ve talked to companies in—there’s a company here in San Antonio that they’ve had 100% of their workforce back in the office since May 11th of last year. 100%. Well, the only thing they did was they, they have a dining room because they got about 2,000 people on campus um, and so they brought a food truck into the ricochet out front and basically created another, another little dining area and they’ve set up a couple of little sandwich stations and other places that they’re building to spread people out around the, around the food piece. But they’ve been 100% back since May 11.
Um, talked to a company in, in Indiana. Same thing. They’ve been back since like middle of April last year. Uh, talked to a California-based company, which I thought was really interesting um, they’ve actually been back already since December and so um, I think everybody’s approaching it a little differently. You know, the main concern I’ve heard and it obviously it varies depending on the type of company, but if you have a very young workforce, then there is a real training, mentoring aspect that, you know, is very much better facilitated in a, you know, office environment um.
But yeah, I mean we personally experienced the exact same thing. So in March, when our son was sitting home from school and my wife was sitting here kicked out the office too for a little bit, so she took over my office so I took over the dining room table. But my son was at the dining room table with me, so it was a train wreck for me to try to get anything done, right, with him right there. But now that he’s back in school—in real school um, in person—and my wife goes back to the office, I mean I’ve got the entire house myself and I’ve got an office too in town but I can, I can work from the house just as easily. So I think everybody’s got, you know, that, you know, that work-life balance is going to be a little different for everybody depending on their situation um, and it’ll be interesting to see how what, what culturally companies choose to do with that going forward.
[25:40] Bill Yeah, because I think we’re going down this rabbit hole of: okay, we’ve created this, you know, this easier way to work. We’ve taken out a lot of um—some would argue unnecessary, you know—travel time, commute time. But things like leadership, camaraderie, supervision, training, mentoring… you know, I think: does that suffer going forward? I don’t know the answers to these questions but I know like, for example, a lot of law firms um, I think are going to probably adopt some hybrid model to where most of the administration staff can, can work from home. And I just—it makes you wonder how it’s going to impact the litigation process as a whole. I don’t know.
[26:30] Tim Well yeah, I mean I think, you know, it’s uh, it remains to be seen. But I think a lot of folks, you know, between the, the fact that the offices have been empty, they’re looking at real estate downsizing—what the cost is of that, you know, overhead. You know, Class A office space, top floor…
[26:45] Bill Yeah.
[26:45] Tim …some of the law firms have had forever. Or, you know, downtown Houston or downtown Orlando, you know, that’s super expensive. Do we need 15 floors of lawyers, you know, all there together? Or, can we complete at all, you know, or some of it virtually? Right?
I mean, I remember, you know, it’s been interesting to see the evolution. I mean AIG, when I go visit them in New York, used to have three buildings in Manhattan. Then they went to two buildings in Manhattan, then they went to one building in Manhattan, and they had two buildings in Jersey City. That’s exactly right. And then they decided to go to hotelling, where now you would go into the office one or two days a week, right? But it was more of just a little, you know, uh, posted thing where you could sit down and plug into as opposed to everybody having their own office space and whatnot. So it’s been—it’s been a trend that’s been continuing for a while but uh, but yeah, we definitely saw a whole, whole different level of it in the last, you know, 13, 14 months.
[27:31] Bill Absolutely. Well listen, Tim, great having you on the podcast again as usual. Uh, keep us updated on how technology is going to be impacting the claims process going forward. I’m sure we’ll have you on again for, for, for updates as, as things go on and uh, best wishes to you. Stay safe out there. But again, thank you very much for, for sharing your wisdom on this important topic.
[27:56] Tim No, appreciate you, Bill. And obviously always a big fan of yours and Courtroom Sciences. You guys do an incredible job, so keep up the good work.
[28:03] Bill Thank you very much. And to our audience members, thank you so much again for participating in the Litigation Psychology Podcast, brought to you by Courtroom Sciences. I’m Bill Kanasky. We will see you next time.
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