Our guest for this episode of The Litigation Psychology Podcast is Punam Kaji, Assistant General Counsel for Ben E. Keith. Punam is focused on employment and litigation matters for the company and is the 2021 winner of the Outstanding Young Lawyer Award of Tarrant County (TX) Young Lawyers Association. She shares with Dr. Steve Wood some of her background as a young attorney and how her experience has benefited from working in a law firm as well as in-house.
Punam talks about how young attorneys can help their firm’s litigators assess how strong their case is for trial, particularly by conducting witness interviews early in the case. Young attorneys can also gain great experience by helping to work up the details of a case. They can make themselves valuable in managing the case by knowing all of the details of the case, understanding the case inside and out and looking at the case from the opposing side’s standpoint to bring that perspective to the trial team.
Punam also emphasizes the importance of young attorneys learning about the business of their clients, how they operate, their culture, vocabulary, etc. and how valuable that knowledge can be when working with their clients. Lastly, she shares her thoughts on how young attorneys can build a book of business and the importance of the critical step of asking for the work.
Full Episode Transcript
[0:05] Steve Welcome to another edition of the Litigation Psychology Podcast brought to you by Courtroom Sciences Inc. I am Dr. Steve Wood, and today we have an interesting topic. You know, we’re fast approaching on our 100th episode of the podcast and we’ve been getting a lot of good feedback from listeners, and I greatly appreciate that. And one of the things we’ve noticed is that a lot of the listen—at least some of the listeners—are younger attorneys who are using the information that they get to help them improve their skill set, which is exactly the way we want.
So today, I wanted to talk a little bit more about that, about topics that are germane to young lawyers. To help me talk about that is Punam Kaji. She is Assistant General Counsel at Ben E. Keith Company. Punam, how are you? Thanks for joining the podcast.
[0:51] Punam I’m doing great. Thanks for having me, Steve.
[0:52] Steve Yeah, I appreciate it. And one of the things I think, one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on as well—and I know you, you are very, you know, very humble and you wouldn’t bring it up yourself so I’ll do it for you—but the Tarrant County Young Lawyers Association just named you the Young Lawyer or a Young Attorney of the Year, correct?
[1:13] Punam That’s right, yeah.
[1:13] Steve That’s awesome. So how did that, how did that come about? How did you get nominated for that and how did you win it?
[1:21] Punam Well, um, quite frankly, some of the wonderful colleagues in the Tarrant County Bar Association nominated me. So I am on the Tarrant County Bar Diversity Committee. And for those of you who aren’t in Texas or DFW, Tarrant County’s Fort Worth and surrounding cities and suburbs. And um, I joined the Diversity Committee really, actually, quite recently in, in 2020.
And the person who’s running the committee, Harrison Smith, reached out to me and said, “Hey, I know you’ve done things in the diversity space in the legal field. I think we really need to do some programming for Tarrant County, but you know, we’re in this pandemic, we’re in this strange environment. What can we do?”
And we ended up putting together a 10-part discussion series on various aspects of diversity and inclusion not only in the legal field but also in the community at large. And we paired it with a book club. So every session we’d have, you know, expert panelists, we’d have people from the legal community sharing their experience. We’d always kind of open it for discussion, so we’d have anywhere from 20 to 60 attendees to most of them and had conversations with each other. And then separately, we’d have a book club related to the topic.
So it ended up being just this really wonderful program. And honestly, people around the State Bar have reached out to me to see the program, see the syllabus that we created. And there’s a lot of talks about emulating similar programs. So it was a couple members of the Diversity Committee that nominated me, and then the Tarrant County Young Lawyers Association leadership that selected me. And it’s, it’s very much an honor um, to receive that award, especially knowing that there are a lot of rock stars in the Tarrant County young lawyers community.
[3:17] Steve That’s funny that you say rockstar because that was one of the first things, you know, I always call you the rock star, so I think it was appropriate. You finally got your due. But I think that’s what it makes you well-suited to talk about the topics today. Like I said, we’re gonna touch upon a lot of different things that young lawyers can use. And you know, young lawyers could be various ranges. I mean, I’ve been in and around the litigation consulting field for going on 14 years now, and I’m still somewhat of a quote-unquote “young” consultant.
So I think a lot of the stuff that we talk about, even if you’ve been in in the legal field for longer, I mean, these are still things I think that are going to be appropriate to them to help them increase their skill set. And I think one of the first things I wanted to talk about—you and I had a conversation kind of about prior to this about some things that would be helpful—and I think one of the things we talked about really was having attorneys develop this skill set of things they can do to attack cases early. And attack the case early, and one of the first things was we talked about was witness interviews. So I want you to see if you can talk a little bit about what it is, what it—how they should approach it.
[4:21] Punam Yeah, absolutely. So just some context, I do a lot of labor and employment law matters. I do some general litigation as well. My background was primarily in labor and employment at a big law firm, and now I’m in-house at Ben E. Keith Company. Um, and I’m sharing my experiences and opinions today that are my own, not related to my company, but I, I think that context is helpful so you can know the types of cases that I work on.
But generally, if you are a litigator, your goal really is assessing whether your case is strong for trial. And there is nothing more important than your witnesses. And what I saw as a young lawyer, um, was that, you know, sometimes even, even in cases with a lot of senior attorneys on them, the actual witness interview phase would—when it came later in the game—it gave us um, a disadvantage when it came to assessing the case.
So one of the things that I do is I like to do witness interviews as soon as I can. Once I start to know the gist of what this case is about, um, I try to initiate witness interviews. If that means we’re gonna have to go back and talk to people a little bit more later because we’re still learning, that might be okay, as long as I at least get a sense of who are these key people who would probably be involved in this matter? And how are they going to present? And do I trust them? Can we work with them? Are they going to be a partner in this litigation matter, or are they going to be um, combative in this litigation matter? Right?
So as a young lawyer, you often get the opportunity to help in the initial investigation, be present for witness interviews, and I think it’s an area where young lawyers can really shine. Because this isn’t necessarily about technical legal expertise, right? You don’t have to know all the case law in the area. You don’t have to have the true litigation experience of arguing in court. What you do need is sharp listening skills and the ability to make a rapport with somebody and to put them at ease in the interview. Um, and so these are more some of those soft skills that you can hone in on and make yourself a really great asset to your team by taking the lead or becoming an expert in witness interviews.
[6:46] Steve I think that’s an excellent point too, when you talk about building a rapport and really listening. Because I think sometimes we have situations where we’ll talk to an attorney and get their sense for: how’s this witness going to present? How’s this—how’s this witness going to do in deposition? And we’ll either get some kind of a lukewarm feeling of him, or we’ll get, which is even worse, is the “he’s going to be great, he’s not going to say anything harmful, he’s going to show up well and present well.”
And then they get into the deposition and they tank. Because it’s just the inability or the evaluation of the witness was incorrect just because maybe you didn’t have an opportunity to talk to them more or weren’t listening or, like you said, doing these aspects that weren’t allowing you to get a clear picture of how this witness is. Because to your point—and we found it time and time and time and time again—is that witness performance is really the key to a case, right? If your witnesses present good, you can increase your chances of either a settlement or a dismissal of a case. But if they tank, that, that settlement offer is now coming off the table or the demand is going much higher, right?
[7:51] Punam Yeah, definitely. I mean, depositions, uh, you know, you know this—I’ve worked with you in your consulting capacity—I mean, it’s such a unique situation for these witnesses. So even somebody who, you know, when you’re chatting with them seems great, when they’re under the pressure of a deposition, um, they might be a different person. So you know, aside from the witness interview, that deposition prep is so important too.
And that is another area where, you know, quite honestly, I think young lawyers can do really, really well. A lot of times in big law or even medium, medium-sized firms, I think it’s very common that maybe the partner is going to take the deposition, but the associate might have a big role when it comes to deposition preparation. And so that’s another space whereas the young lawyer, um, you can really lean into that. You know, sometimes you’re just kind of like, “Oh, I wish I was the one taking the depo,” but you know, instead lean into the preparation phase because there’s so much there in terms of getting your witness to really understand the pressure of the Q&A style of a deposition as opposed to normal conversation.
[9:02] Steve Yeah, so we’ve talked about, you know, you got your witnesses now, you started to talk with him. Now the next thing we, you know, I want to do is work up the facts of the case and develop the facts of the case. So can you talk a little bit about that? About your thoughts on how young attorneys can help to work up the case?
[9:19] Punam Yeah, you know, one of the things um, that really strikes me when I’m, when I’m working with attorneys um, is how well they actually know the case. So this is true kind of also from that in-house counsel working with outside counsel perspective. I often get the question of “what are you looking for your outside counsel to do?” And one of the, one of the things is really, really know the case.
I mean, and, and for some people, you know, memorization comes easy and they kind of remember the names, they remember the key events. For other people, it can be a little more difficult to memorize some of the ins and outs of the case. So make a really solid timeline for yourself. Make yourself a good working document where you have the key facts of the case, the key individuals who are involved in the case.
So um, you know, as an associate, again, this is an area where you can really be of value. You know, you can be the one to tell a partner, “Hey, I have this timeline of the facts of what happened.” Um, and or in a meeting, in a deposition, etc., if you really have the facts uh, memorized and you really know the case well, then you’re going to be of greater value to be able to chime in during a break or something and say, “Hey, just a good fact to remember from the case,” or “I notice they commented on this; it doesn’t line up with the facts that we know to be true.”
So it, it’s really another area where you kind of—I really encourage young lawyers to do their homework and, and learn the facts of the case really well. Um, and I encourage outside counsel to do that as well. And I, I think young lawyers particularly, um, are often kind of feeling like that imposter syndrome, right? “If I’m not good enough, I’m not—I don’t know what I’m doing.” This is something you can do. Like, you can memorize the facts of a case, right? You may still be learning a lot of other stuff in that um, first couple years of practice, but this, this you can definitely do. You memorized a ton of stuff for the bar exam, so you can definitely memorize some of the facts in the case.
[11:26] Steve Yeah, and I think one of the other things I would add on to that as well about learning the facts of the case—and I talk about it in a presentation and other things on confirmation bias—essentially the idea, right, that we have blinders on for things that go against our thoughts and our opinions. And I think one of the other things young lawyers can do to help improve that is to start early on the idea of looking at the other side’s case and not dismissing things that the other side might have as a strong point, or not, not thinking that your case facts are as strong as they really are. You know, just really thinking outside the box as far as looking critically at your case facts and look, “Okay, what is the weak points in this case? If I were opposing counsel, where would I attack these different case facts, information? Where would I go with this?” And then looking at theirs as well and, and looking to attack on that and not even necessarily looking at something that’s strong and then poo-pooing at it, right? But, but truly understanding the case inside and out from both perspectives, I think would help to make you basically, you know, not drink your own Kool-Aid, of sorts.
[12:29] Punam Yeah, no, that is such a good point. Because that can happen really quickly when you’re all advocates for your client and you’re all cheerleaders for your client. So next thing you know, you know, when your team is just like, “Gosh, this, this case is just completely frivolous,” right? Like, you kind of start going that route. And you might need to just uh, take a minute, read the facts of the case from their perspective and definitely evaluate, you know, um, what their presentation will look like. Right?
Again, I think as a litigator, it’s really fun to always think about trial, even though most of these matters may not go to trial. It’s really fun to think about what would they present? What are—what are their strongest facts? You know, they have something. There’s no way they’re, they’re not going to have anything to present. So I agree, that’s a fun way to look at it.
[13:16] Steve Yeah, and then the next thing we wanted to talk about now is really just kind to you working with, with your clients, and that is really understanding their business and understanding the way they approach things. So can you talk a little bit about that topic?
[13:28] Punam Yeah, so you know, this is something I really love to do as an attorney. Um, I realized how much I liked doing this when I was at a firm and, and some of the clients um, were more inclined to say like, “Hey, come, come visit. Come see our facility. You know, come see how we do things so you can learn the business.” Which is really fun when you have a client that’s um, open to that and wants you to learn more about the business.
So I love those opportunities um, whether it was going to the headquarters, a corporate headquarters, or going to a facility to kind of see the ins and outs of a business. Um, it’s a great opportunity to learn the vocabulary and the jargon of another business. Every, every corporate client probably has its own vocabulary in terms of, you know, abbreviations that they use for the business, but also kind of their culture, right? Like, what words are really important for their culture?
So it’s fun to learn that and I think the clients really, really appreciate it to say, “Wow, you, you really learned our business. You actually know how we operate.” Um, so I think that’s a great opportunity if you ever get it, you know, to seize it and to really try to learn.
It’s something that I have to do with in-house counsel, right? As in-house counsel, you absolutely need to know your client. You need to understand the business as much as you can and understand the culture um, so you can give the best advice. Otherwise, you’re really operating in a vacuum. And you know, one thing about being a lawyer is um, yes, there’s you have to apply the law um, to the facts, but there’s a lot of context. And when you get to know your client, you’re going to understand the context of things a lot better and it’ll help you, you know, guide what best strategy works for you and your client.
Um, you know, some clients will, will be more aggressive than others. All those kind of things. Like, the more you know that, the better you know your client, the better you can do. Um, but I, I would say the most uh, important part for young lawyers there is that um, learning the business side. So that can be a challenge sometimes. You know, sometimes if you’re working, I don’t know, with a financial institution or something, like, it, it can be—take a little bit of study, right? To learn: what does this business actually do? Um, but it’s worth it. I think the clients appreciate it and you’ll be a better attorney for it.
[16:02] Steve Yeah, I think that’s an excellent point as well. I’ve worked with several attorneys who know the business almost better than the witnesses do. And they’ll be talking about them and they’ll—and the witness will say something in the deposition training and they’re going to say, “Well, that actually, it’s not this or it’s not that,” because they’ve read the handbooks, they know the business. And I think like you said, you can tell that it, it makes it—that attorney a much better asset to the case because like I said, they fully know the ins and outs. So I think it’s, that’s a great point.
I just want to kind of close up, you know, we talked about learning the business side of your client, but then obviously, you know, as young lawyers, they—all of us really are trying to build our book of business, right? So you know, trying to get out and meet with clients and get additional clients. So what kind of thoughts do you have, what kind of advice do you have for young lawyers as they try to build their book of business?
[16:51] Punam Yeah, that’s a great question. And I know um, I know that there’s a lot of pressure there for young lawyers and there’s honestly not a lot of clear answers. It’s kind of like just get yourself out there and meet as many people as you can.
Um, one thing I would say is, you know, people don’t actually make the ask all that much. And I, uh, I have—this is, this has been kind of my response to this question when I get asked this, and maybe different in-house counsel will, will disagree with me. But for me, if you haven’t asked me for the business, then I kind of don’t know if you need it or not. I don’t know what phase you are in the process of business development. I don’t know if you necessarily want to do work for, you know, my client.
So one thing is learning how to make the ask. And as cheesy as it sounds, I encourage young lawyers to come up with whatever their elevator pitch is. So if it’s, “Hey, I’m, you know, at this firm and we do X, Y, and Z types of practice and if I can ever help you out with anything I’d really like to,” or “Can I sign you up on our newsletter where we get out alerts on legal issues and you know, let me know how I can help you with anything.” I mean, that is, that’s the ask. And then I know, “Okay, you’re actually looking for business,” and I, I can at least put that in the back of my mind um, if we have a matter that needs to get assigned to, to outside counsel.
The one other thing I would say is it goes back to our last topic of learning the business. Because a lot of times um, people say, “You know, oh, I want business development, I want business development,” but you have to actually kind of learn what the clients are doing, where the clients are. Go to the industry-specific events and understand what we do.
You know, a lot of people, example for Ben E. Keith, for whatever reason, a lot of people think we’re only a beverage distributor, um, that we only distribute beer. And so then I’ll have to explain, “No, we’ve got this food side of the business; it’s actually really big part of our business.” Um, but if, if you haven’t really taken 10 minutes to, to look it up, then I’m not really sold on the pitch, right? So do a little bit of homework. Um, I know, I know that I know that everyone’s already really busy and they probably don’t want to hear that, but do a little bit of that background work and make the ask.
[19:26] Steve Yeah, I think—excellent. I mean, I think you—p-perfect. Exactly what I would have said as well is, you know, I do a lot of work in transportation and trucking, and you have to know, right? You don’t want to come in there and work with the witness and not know any of the jargon and not be able to talk to talk, right? Because if not, you just look like you don’t—you’re out of place.
So I think that’s excellent when you talk about learning the business, and I don’t think it needs to be a deep dive, you know, spending hours and hours and hours and hours and becoming an expert. But like you said, knowing just general basic terms so that when you are talking with someone, you can at least use the language that, that they’re using. I think that’s great.
And I think the other one you said is, is absolutely perfect: is just ask for the business, right? I think a lot of times—and I know I’ve been guilty of it myself, right—you’ve gone to law school, you have your JD, I went to, you know, doctoral school, I have my PhD or graduate school, you know, and we’re thinking, “Okay, well we’re the business professionals, we, we don’t want to go out there and ask for the business because we’re a little embarrassed by it,” or maybe we think it’s beneath us, or whatever the point may be, or you’re just generally uncomfortable with it.
But like I said, that’s the way you’re going to have to build the business. And I had to learn that as well as I was coming up, that it’s not—people aren’t just going to be banging on your door for the business. You’re going to have to go out and ask for it. And like, at the end of the day, what are they going to say? The worst thing is going to be “no.” Right? And you know, that’s the worst thing they could say is no. But for every no, there could be potentially a yes. I think if you don’t ask for it, you don’t get it. So I think that was, that was a perfect, perfect, perfect piece of advice for, for young attorneys. That’s how they build their book of business.
So I just kind of want to wrap this up. I know you, you’ve done a lot, you got a lot of stuff out there. If people want to get a hold of you—young attorneys want to get a hold of you to talk to you more about anything you talked about—how can they get a hold of you?
[21:13] Punam So I am on LinkedIn. Um, you can find me, Punam Kaji, on LinkedIn. Um, I have a oddly unique first-last name combination, so it’s easy to find me. And I’m active on there and I like talking to young lawyers and giving um, this kind of advice and sending them um, to other people who are good resources in this area too. So I’m always happy to talk about that. I also love talking about going in-house. I think a lot of people um, think about that career path for themselves and have a lot of questions in that realm. Um, so that’s the best way to, to find me.
[21:54] Steve And I know I, I’ve been on your LinkedIn page, I’ve seen that you’re very active on that. On your LinkedIn page, they can find these links to the other things you’ve done as well: the diversity panel that you’ve been on and a lot of the other, the 10-part series you referenced earlier. All that stuff is on LinkedIn as well, correct? So they can track down all the other things that you’ve been doing out there as you’ve been a rock star in the legal community.
[22:15] Punam Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, come, come see what, what’s going on. And I’m very um, happy and proud of what the Tarrant County Bar has been able to do. And I think we’re coming out of this virtual pandemic phase, but we’ve learned a lot about everything we can do remotely. We can do really awesome things and connect um, ideas and people remotely as well. So uh, it’s a new—it’s a new opportunity for all of us and I’m excited to see where it goes. So thanks for, thanks for having me, Steve. It’s been a lot of fun.
[22:49] Steve Yeah, absolutely. Hopefully, I’ll get you to come on again and we’ll talk about another topic. If anybody needs anything from me, I can be reached at swood@courtroomsciences.com. This has been another episode of the Litigation Psychology Podcast brought to you by Courtroom Sciences Inc. Thanks for joining.
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